|
Post by zirui on May 16, 2018 4:34:33 GMT
1 Samuel 28 19 New Living Translation What's more, the LORD will hand you and the army of Israel over to the Philistines tomorrow, and you and your sons will be here with me. The LORD will bring down the entire army of Israel in defeat." Does this verse imply that Saul made it to heaven?
|
|
|
Post by Jeff G on May 16, 2018 14:02:16 GMT
I would say that this verse doesn't tell us much of anything about Saul's fate (except that he's going to die). A good place to start would be verses 13 and 14, where the woman describes to Saul what she sees - " I see a god coming up out of the earth." & " An old man is coming up." My point here is where Samuel is coming from. Samuel, the prophet, is coming up from out of the earth. See, in Old Testament times the understanding was that when a person died, whether righteous or wicked, they would go to Sheol. (The Greek word corresponding to Sheol is Hades.) But this doesn't mean that everyone is in the same condition in Sheol/Hades. There was also the idea of different compartments - a place where the wicked were punished, and a place where the righteous were in comfort (although these were awaiting a better outcome). This is the background of Jesus' parable of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16. I expect the two places in the parable are sometimes interpreted as heaven and hell. I don't think this is the case. I think this is about two different parts of Sheol - Abraham's Bosom and a place of torment - and it is these two compartments that are separated by the "great chasm". (See the wiki for the Bosom of Abraham). All of this is to say that just because Saul is going to be where Samuel is, that doesn't really tell us much (provided that Samuel's statement "you will be here with me" is about Sheol in general and not a specific 'compartment'). To wrap this up and explain how it fits with a modern understanding of the status of the deceased, we need to talk about Christ. The idea is that when He died on the cross, he descended into Sheol/Hades. He was able to free the righteous dead and take them to heaven. (See the wiki for the Harrowing of Hell) So nowadays, when a person dies, it is possible that their spirit goes directly to heaven. Perhaps one way to talk about this is that in Rev. 1:18 Jesus says that He has the keys to death and Hades. Well, that was certainly true when He said it and it's true now, but I don't think it was always true. That is, prior to the Cross, Jesus didn't have these keys.
|
|
|
Post by demetri on May 17, 2018 5:17:54 GMT
www.fellowshipofthemartyrs.com/articles/46-bible-studies/122-what-and-where-is-hell-w-rose-This should link to an article that goes a little more in depth on what Jeff mentions concerning Sheol. It’s an interesting read There are 2 schools of opinion on what happens to Saul. Verse 15-19 are all bad concerning him. 19 looks to be concerning sheol but not mentioning which specific place in sheol. By the stuff Samuel says from 15-18 it’s easy to “assume” it’s not the good place. There’s another post on this subject where Jeff makes some arguments to why he think Saul may have been saved. Check it out if you can find it
|
|
|
Post by Jeff G on May 17, 2018 15:18:57 GMT
|
|