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Post by iloveyou on Nov 14, 2019 12:44:50 GMT
Greetings, How do you guys reconsile the verses that say:
if you believe that jesus rose and died you shalt be saved and you must be born again to inherit the kingdom.
You guys think theres people that get born again as they go to heaven after they die?
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Post by Larry Marquez on Nov 14, 2019 14:50:47 GMT
Greetings, How do you guys reconsile the verses that say: if you believe that jesus rose and died you shalt be saved and
you must be born again to inherit the kingdom. You guys think theres people that get born again as they go to heaven after they die? I don't know about the second part of your question. But it seems Romans 10:9 is related to the first part of your question. " If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. " - Romans 10:9 NIV People need to believe in their heart and not just in their mind. Only God can help with that. Like how some people say, you just need faith in Jesus, but they don't know about this verse. " For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love " - Galatians 5:6 KJV Faith and love are intertwined.
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Post by Jeff G on Nov 14, 2019 17:46:35 GMT
Note - my third post in this thread functions as sort of a summary of these longer two posts.
In my mind, the place to start in order to reconcile these things is First John 5:1 - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. ..."
Then we should make sure we understand definitions - that is, what does John mean by "Jesus is the Christ"? In other words, what are the essential, non-negotiable components of the concept of "Christ" or "Messiah"?
John 20:31 -- "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."
This makes it pretty clear that part of John's definition of "Christ" is the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. (See also 1 John 2:22.) Also, the basic facts of the gospel seem pretty reasonable to include here, and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is a good place to go for that - "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures." (v. 3-4)
So I think a pretty good definition of what John means by "Jesus is the Christ" is that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead. Then according to this verse (1 John 5:1), EVERYONE who believes THAT has been born of God.
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Now, this may go contrary to what some folks think they know about what it means to be born again. Some seem to think that a radical transformation MUST take place if a person is genuinely born again. Now don't get me wrong - a radical transformation is certainly what we WANT to see take place. But does it always happen?
I think this is the key - in the Parable of the Sower, which can be found in Matthew 13 (or Mark 4 or Luke 8), we see various kinds of soils receive the seed, and then various things happen. To support the idea that this parable has to do with being born again, see 1 Peter 1:23 or 1 John 3:9 -- both of which speak of being born again in terms of SEED.
So here's the deal, some people become born-again and then they wither, like the seed that falls on the rocky ground. That's bad. We don't want that, but it happens.
There are plenty of places in the Bible that present a pretty high standard for what it means to genuinely follow the Messiah. First John 5:1 doesn't present nearly such a high standard, but it does describe for us who those people are that have been born again. I think the Parable of the Sower is the way to bridge the gap between these things. Becoming born again doesn't take much on our part (not by works, lest any man should boast), but walking out our faith, growing in the Lord, and bearing good fruit -- that's another story.
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Bottom line - getting born again and then withering is bad.
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Post by Larry Marquez on Nov 14, 2019 18:41:20 GMT
In my mind, the place to start in order to reconcile these things is First John 5:1 - " Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God. ..." Then we should make sure we understand definitions - that is, what does John mean by "Jesus is the Christ"? In other words, what are the essential, non-negotiable components of the concept of "Christ" or "Messiah"? John 20:31 -- " but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name." This makes it pretty clear that part of John's definition of "Christ" is the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. (See also 1 John 2:22.) Also, the basic facts of the gospel seem pretty reasonable to include here, and 1 Corinthians 15:1-4 is a good place to go for that - "For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures." (v. 3-4)
So I think a pretty good definition of what John means by "Jesus is the Christ" is that Jesus is the Son of God who died for our sins and rose from the dead. Then according to this verse (1 John 5:1), EVERYONE who believes THAT has been born of God.
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Now, this may go contrary to what some folks think they know about what it means to be born again. Some seem to think that a radical transformation MUST take place if a person is genuinely born again. Now don't get me wrong - a radical transformation is certainly what we WANT to see take place. But does it always happen?
I think this is the key - in the Parable of the Sower, which can be found in Matthew 13 (or Mark 4 or Luke 8), we see various kinds of soils receive the seed, and then various things happen. To support the idea that this parable has to do with being born again, see 1 Peter 1:23 or 1 John 3:9 -- both of which speak of being born again in terms of SEED.
So here's the deal, some people become born-again and then they wither, like the seed that falls on the rocky ground. That's bad. We don't want that, but it happens.
There are plenty of places in the Bible that present a pretty high standard for what it means to genuinely follow the Messiah. First John 5:1 doesn't present nearly such a high standard, but it does describe for us who those people are that have been born again. I think the Parable of the Sower is the way to bridge the gap between these things. Becoming born again doesn't take much on our part (not by works, lest any man should boast), but walking out our faith, growing in the Lord, and bearing good fruit -- that's another story.
----- Bottom line - getting born again and then withering is bad. I thought the seed in the parable of the sower refers to the gospel message? Paul mentions some plant a seed and others water seed, but God makes it grow.
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Post by Jeff G on Nov 14, 2019 19:43:41 GMT
I think you're right - the seed does refer to the gospel message. In Matthew 13:19 Jesus speaks of the "word of the Kingdom," Mark 4:14 says "The sower sows the word," and in Luke 8:11 we're told that "The seed is the word of God."
In all cases we're talking about the word. I think it makes plenty of sense to regard the "word" as specifically concerning the gospel message. Here is 1 Peter 1:23-25 -
"since you have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God; for
'All flesh is like grass and all its glory like the flower of grass. The grass withers, and the flower falls, but the word of the Lord remains forever.'
And this word is the good news that was preached to you."
Here the "word" is specifically identified as the good news or Gospel (some translations say Gospel). OK then... The Parable of the Sower talks about seed being the word; and this passage in 1 Peter talks about being born again - of imperishable seed, through the word of God. That's why I think the parable goes together with this passage really well. And now, if we look at this in the Greek, something interesting happens...
Notice that "word" occurs three times in these verses - once in the top line, and then in the bottom two lines. In the first instance it says logos in Greek, and in the other two it says rhema. These are somewhat interchangeable, but I think rhema tends to refer more to something spoken... or preached. But the word logos, particularly when it says the logos of God, that makes me think of Jesus -- Jesus is the Word of God.
So here's how I understand this passage (kinda looking at the end first) -- when a person receives the Gospel, the rhema-word of God that is preached to them--- that amounts to receiving the logos-word of God: Jesus --- and as a result, the person is born again. -------------------------------
That's how I understand it anyway. If people think I'm not connecting this together correctly then we can discuss it. But I think it makes sense. And this goes well with how some plant seed and some water it, like you mentioned.
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Post by James Brady on Nov 18, 2019 8:15:45 GMT
Here's my short input...
Jesus said "you fool, what lives doesn't live unless it dies first."
A prophet once said to me, at precisely the right moment, with great boldness and even joy, "If you want to live, you need to die."
The one who tries to save his soul (psuche, soul in Greek) will lose it, but the one who loses his soul for my sake, will keep it to everlasting life (life, zoë in Greek.)
To proclaim Jesus as totally Lord over you (what some call Lordship salvation) is part of the real requirement to be born again.
If not, a person is still following the man of lawlessness, who says you can sin some and be accepted.
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Post by Jeff G on Dec 3, 2019 2:27:24 GMT
1 John 5:1 makes it sound like being born again isn't a high standard - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God..."
1 John 3:9 sounds like a much higher standard - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning..."
I think the parable of the sower is the correct way to fit these together - it's possible for a person to be born again, but then to wither.
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Post by Larry Marquez on Dec 14, 2019 21:34:26 GMT
Good video to watch that I feel relates to this topic, regarding when they talk about John Harper and the titanic. 5 Christians men that died young: youtu.be/LHlbeiSR34I
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Post by waris on Dec 15, 2019 0:00:53 GMT
Greetings, How do you guys reconsile the verses that say: if you believe that jesus rose and died you shalt be saved and
you must be born again to inherit the kingdom. You guys think theres people that get born again as they go to heaven after they die? What does believing mean? Saying I love Jesus and then not doing anything he says? There’s a difference between saying “I believe this is true” and actually knowing without a doubt that this is actually true. Some people say they believe but they act like they don’t. As for being born again. It’s like you are a new person. Instead of liking sin you actually hate it. The seed grows. You grow into a new person into the image of Christ with a new mind and new heart. You grow a brain and you grow a conscience. You hear his words you are like a wise man building a house on a rock. You take his advice and stop making bad decisions. You can’t do this without the Holy Ghost. And since this is something that takes place on the inside then it’s spiritual and therefore born of the Spirit. Since there is a physical body and spiritual body and the flesh wars against the Spirit and the carnal mind is at war with God. “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.” Romans 8:1-17
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Post by James Brady on Dec 18, 2019 19:31:58 GMT
1 John 5:1 makes it sound like being born again isn't a high standard - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God..." 1 John 3:9 sounds like a much higher standard - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning..." I think the parable of the sower is the correct way to fit these together - it's possible for a person to be born again, but then to wither. It even says "no one born of God continues to sin", and John says it in the strongest sense, because he also says "the one who sins (misses the mark!) is of the devil" (How many are racked with soul-searching grief and humiliation when they sin even once, unintentionally?) I agree with you on this: Salvation and being born again are simple. Proclaim with your lips. Believe in your heart. Done. But to know who Jesus is (not a false picture), proclaim Him as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead requires more than hearing a osas sermon, I think. But I'm not trying to box God. I long for the most merciful possible outcome. I just have been terrified by God's holiness, and burned by fire by Him, more than once.
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Post by waris on Dec 18, 2019 20:40:20 GMT
1 John 5:1 makes it sound like being born again isn't a high standard - "Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God..." 1 John 3:9 sounds like a much higher standard - "No one born of God makes a practice of sinning..." I think the parable of the sower is the correct way to fit these together - it's possible for a person to be born again, but then to wither. It even says "no one born of God continues to sin", and John says it in the strongest sense, because he also says "the one who sins (misses the mark!) is of the devil" (How many are racked with soul-searching grief and humiliation when they sin even once, unintentionally?) I agree with you on this: Salvation and being born again are simple. Proclaim with your lips. Believe in your heart. Done. But to know who Jesus is (not a false picture), proclaim Him as Lord, and believe God raised Him from the dead requires more than hearing a osas sermon, I think. But I'm not trying to box God. I long for the most merciful possible outcome. I just have been terrified by God's holiness, and burned by fire by Him, more than once. How can one sin if they are born again?
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Post by James Brady on Dec 18, 2019 21:28:06 GMT
How can the letter to Jude speak of the twice dead, unless it's possible for the flesh to come roaring back up to life, and war against the Spirit, and cause a believer to sin?
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Post by waris on Dec 18, 2019 21:34:50 GMT
How can the letter to Jude speak of the twice dead, unless it's possible for the flesh to come roaring back up to life, and war against the Spirit, and cause a believer to sin? Twice dead doesn’t mean dead again it means you’re dead two times over. They grow but are dead producing dead fruit and then die being plucked up. Dead inside and outside. How can a born again choose to sin if they are a new creation? If they sinned then they were not fully born again.
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