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Post by dominiquerhines on Feb 20, 2020 16:28:06 GMT
I am trying to understand what / who is the Angel of the Lord? It speaks as a though it were separate from God while at the same time speaking as though it were God (or at least speaking for Him).
Examples: 1) Hagar - Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18 2) Abraham - Genesis 22:10-12,15-18 3) Moses - Exodus 3:1-14, Numbers 20:16 4) Balaam - Numbers 22:22-35 5) Gideon - Judges 6:11-22 6) Manoah & his wife - Judges 13:3-23 7) David when he sinned- 2 Samuel 24:16
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Post by Larry Marquez on Feb 21, 2020 0:38:23 GMT
I am trying to understand what / who is the Angel of the Lord? It speaks as a though it were separate from God while at the same time speaking as though it were God (or at least speaking for Him). Examples: 1) Hagar - Genesis 16:7-12; 21:17-18 2) Abraham - Genesis 22:10-12,15-18 3) Moses - Exodus 3:1-14, Numbers 20:16 4) Balaam - Numbers 22:22-35 5) Gideon - Judges 6:11-22 6) Manoah & his wife - Judges 13:3-23 7) David when he sinned- 2 Samuel 24:16 I think it's just an angel from God that their name isn't mentioned.
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Post by Jeff G on Mar 17, 2020 16:47:57 GMT
I think that at least in some cases, this is much more than an ordinary angel. First, it's good to recognize that with both Hebrew and Greek, the words that we translate as "angel" simply mean messenger ( malakh & angelos). So this means that "angel" doesn't refer to a category of created being that the English word "angel" might bring to mind; but rather, there is a greater range of possible meanings available. In a few of the passages you mentioned, it seems like we're dealing with a manifestation of God and not an angel in the sense of a created being. Exodus 3:2 says " And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..." but then v. 4 says " When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush... ." Likewise with Gideon - Judges 6:11-12 is speaking about the angel of the LORD, but then verse 14 says, "And the LORD turned to him and said..."However, I do think that in some instances angel of the Lord can refer to a created being sent by God. In Luke chapter 1, an angel of the Lord appears to Zechariah (v. 11), but in verse 19 he identifies himself as Gabriel. So I think it just depends - sometimes "angel of the LORD" can mean one thing, and sometimes it means another.Now, going back to the idea of it being a manifestation of God, people often identify the Angel of the LORD as being a pre-incarnate manifestation of Christ. There are various ways of supporting this position, but here's a line of reasoning that you don't hear that often: In Genesis 32 Jacob wrestles with "a man," and when Jacob asks him his name, he replies, “Why do you ask My name?” (v. 29). Later, in the incident with Samson's parents, Manoah asks the Angel of the Lord what his name is, and the response begins the same way - “Why do you ask My name?” but then he adds, " ... since it is wonderful?” (Judges 13:18). Now that word for "wonderful" is translated various ways (wonderful, secret, beyond understanding), but the Hebrew word is only one letter different from a very important "name" that we see elsewhere... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6). My point here is that I think all three passages can be connected together: the "man" who wrestled with Jacob is the same as the Angel of the LORD who appeared to Manoah and his wife, and these are both pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus Christ. So in conclusion, sometimes the Angel of the LORD may simply be an angel, but sometimes it is much more than that.
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Post by dominiquerhines on Mar 20, 2020 23:50:04 GMT
I think that at least in some cases, this is much more than an ordinary angel. First, it's good to recognize that with both Hebrew and Greek, the words that we translate as "angel" simply mean messenger ( malakh & angelos). So this means that "angel" doesn't refer to a category of created being that the English word "angel" might bring to mind; but rather, there is a greater range of possible meanings available. In a few of the passages you mentioned, it seems like we're dealing with a manifestation of God and not an angel in the sense of a created being. Exodus 3:2 says " And the angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush..." but then v. 4 says " When the LORD saw that he turned aside to see, God called to him out of the bush... ." Likewise with Gideon - Judges 6:11-12 is speaking about the angel of the LORD, but then verse 14 says, "And the LORD turned to him and said..."However, I do think that in some instances angel of the Lord can refer to a created being sent by God. In Luke chapter 1, an angel of the Lord appears to Zechariah (v. 11), but in verse 19 he identifies himself as Gabriel. So I think it just depends - sometimes "angel of the LORD" can mean one thing, and sometimes it means another.Now, going back to the idea of it being a manifestation of God, people often identify the Angel of the LORD as being a pre-incarnate manifestation of Christ. There are various ways of supporting this position, but here's a line of reasoning that you don't hear that often: In Genesis 32 Jacob wrestles with "a man," and when Jacob asks him his name, he replies, “Why do you ask My name?” (v. 29). Later, in the incident with Samson's parents, Manoah asks the Angel of the Lord what his name is, and the response begins the same way - “Why do you ask My name?” but then he adds, " ... since it is wonderful?” (Judges 13:18). Now that word for "wonderful" is translated various ways (wonderful, secret, beyond understanding), but the Hebrew word is only one letter different from a very important "name" that we see elsewhere... For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government will be upon His shoulders. And He will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6). My point here is that I think all three passages can be connected together: the "man" who wrestled with Jacob is the same as the Angel of the LORD who appeared to Manoah and his wife, and these are both pre-incarnation appearances of Jesus Christ. So in conclusion, sometimes the Angel of the LORD may simply be an angel, but sometimes it is much more than that. Hey thank you Jeff. I don't really know how to write people without repeating everything you just said but this really helps me to understand a whole lot better!
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