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Post by Doe on Mar 25, 2017 1:20:19 GMT
I'm not sure what I'm doing, but wanted to make a comment. I recently listened to teaching about divorce and remarriage and you seem to understand the scripture very well regarding this, so I decided to look up more videos. I'm surprised to find that your understanding didn't carry through to understanding the importance of keeping the Sabbath. I see you are a Sunday keeping organization. How do you reconcile this into your understanding. The. Sabbath is the sign between God and His people and God doesn't change. It's the Catholics who changed the day, so they could worship satan, sunday is his day, the day of the sun. Please go back to scriptures; I know you have the discernment for this. I'd like to hear more of your teachings, if you can realize this truth añd btw, easter and christmas are unbiblical and "pagan".
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Post by Larry Marquez on Mar 25, 2017 15:18:40 GMT
Doesn't this passage show how the Sabbath day doesn't matter in the new covenant, but as long we dedicate a Sabbath/rest period to the Lord on a consist basis and we're obeying God day by day?
"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. " - Colossians 2:16-17
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Post by christopher on Mar 25, 2017 17:59:31 GMT
I read this just today:
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
"He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks."
-Romans 13:5-6
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maria
User
https://youtu.be/NBv7sEeMfMc
Posts: 27
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Post by maria on Apr 12, 2017 16:29:46 GMT
maria: Is there any true people of God to take me in? I walked with Jesus then went far been trying to re fully surrender. I need to be in a group for awhile besides FOTM where canI get on a train to then have money for my food sent? a few seconds ago x
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Post by nobody on Nov 17, 2017 5:51:32 GMT
Sabbath keeping refuted
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16-17
The word being used for Sabbath here in Greek is “sabbaton,” (refers to the weekly Sabbath day) and it only occurs once in all the writings of the Apostle Paul. Here it's used in the negative sense so as not to make a required observance of the weekly Sabbath. The language used "let no man judge" implies that there should be no obedience to social pressure for such a thing. Even if that wasn't the case, it says let no man judge you in respect of a holy day. What is the Jewish Sabbath? A holy day of course.
The other thing that stands out about that verse is that Paul calls these things a "shadow of things to come." The Old Testament was full of illustrations of what God was going to do through the Messiah, but consider it now, if this is a moral command that is not to ever be departed from (he was speaking of the weekly Sabbath) why would he call it a shadow of what was coming in the ministry of Jesus Christ?
In the Old Testament one of the Holy days commanded to be observed was the Passover. That however was a foreshadow of the death of the lamb of God (Jesus) dying on the cross shedding his blood. The temple sacrifice was much the same. Abraham being commanded to sacrifice his only son, another picture of what God would do in Christ. The arc of the covenant, a holy vessel containing the word of God, Jesus was very much this arc of the new Covenant, as it was said that he was the logos (word of God) made flesh, hence the word of God was contained in his person. Jesus said he was the bread of life, the arc contained manna that came down from Heaven in the Exodus from Egypt. Jesus said he would raise the temple of God in three days if they tore it down, he spoke of his body, but the Jews were confused and thought he meant the temple building they worshiped in. The point is this, the shadow is not the actual solid substance, it’s something that only evidences what is solidly real. It follows the same pattern as the real thing, but can never replace it or be it.
What we have now is the body being "of Christ" that is to say there is now no need for a physical observance to holiness in which a man must physically draw near to God because God has come down from Heaven in the Holy Spirit to dwell in man and inspired him to live a holy life every day. This is a greater thing than a man taking one day to enter imperfect physical observe unto holiness. (a shadow of being joined with God by a life lived in the Holy Spirit) God has made every day holy because every day is spent in the temple of God. Paul used this language often referring to a believer's body as "the temple of the Holy Spirit." He also issues a rebuke to the Galatian church for holding days in regard one above another:
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years." Galatians 4:9-10
Look at that, he calls it bondage! He's speaking of the religious observance of "days, and months, and times, and years." Let's not let this get twisted out of context, the Galatians were rebuked for being returned to "circumcision." This is the symbol of the Jew under the Old Covenant. The Galatian rebuke was against "false brethren" who crept in to spy out Christian liberty and bring the church again into bondage under the law. The evidence from Paul’s letters show that he was in no way a proponent of Sabbath keeping. Twice he mentioned having a religious day in a negative connotation, one of them to call it bondage.
In Romans chapter 14 there is another occurrence of Paul speaking about differences between believers about regarding days "one above another" and the opposing group regarding "every day alike." The second group is the one to look at here, he's saying some have no observance of days as holy days, but actually hold every day in the same regard. If there was a Sabbath day command to be observed surely Paul would issue a scathing rebuke here to the every day is common crowd. The opposite is true however, he says "let every man be persuaded in his own mind." I've heard Seventh Day Adventists try to say this verse (Romans 14:5) refers to the observance of Jewish feast days or other such ceremonial religious days. It doesn't matter, the verse shows plainly that some Christians regard “every day alike.” Not one holy and the other six common. He makes the distinction that both belong to the Lord when in verse 4 he calls them both the Lord's servant. How could a man be considered the Lord’s servant who will not serve the Lord as he supposedly prescribed to all people?
"I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." Exodus 20:2
I've never been brought out of Egypt, never been there either obviously. I'm not trying to be a wise guy, but I want to illustrate the context of the ten Commandments more importantly to whom God is speaking in this chapter of the book of Exodus. The New Testament actually speaks of this being the old covenant, with Jesus Christ himself as the executor and embodiment of the New Covenant. Later on in the same chapter of Exodus God says to build an altar out of earth or stone. Ever done that? Me either. But I don’t need to now, my sacrifice is provided for me in Christ by faith. I know this doesn't prove anything, it's not supposed to, I've never died but I know I will.
What I'm pointing out is that no one was ever commanded to observe a Jewish Sabbath In the New Testament. Equally as interesting is that Sabbath breakers were never listed among those who were condemned in The Apostle Paul's numerous lists of those sins which exclude one from Heaven. So there's no command to keep the Sabbath, no condemnation for not keeping it recorded at all in the New Testament. Wouldn’t you say that’s peculiar if this moral command is so binding as the Adventist insists? Peter gave what was to be commanded to the Gentiles under the New Covenant.
"Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood." Acts 15:19-20
Gentiles weren't Sabbath keepers, and Peter said they had turned to God; why wasn't this seemingly unique Hebrew custom given to them as an observance? Why weren't the Ten Commandments given to these new Christians? I say it's because they were obvious. Many will make the argument that the ten commands were a moral law, and were never abolished. We now have the one who gave the commands living in us by faith and the power of God, and the point is simple that these things are obvious to any who would seek to do good to God and man even without the Holy Spirit. It’s so simple to see that people don’t need commands for what they want to do. How do you think civil law is enacted, it’s by what’s obviously good to all men. God has revealed them to our conscience from heaven since the beginning of time. Paul's epistle to the Romans states this truth in chapter one, that the invisible things of God have been displayed through creation from the foundation of the world. People want order, people want peace, and the commands given do demand these things as do civil laws written by secular courts.
That has to lead us to the question of how these things are obvious. It's obviously wrong to kill life because no man can make life by his own devices. Stealing is wrong, and that's obvious for what man (apart from a twisted wretch) can feel a sense of entitlement for what's not his? We can see that making an image reflecting God isn't right because we cannot define the shape of that which is invisible. We can know in our hearts that a God we made up isn't the real God, we don't have to look far to prove that, we know we made it up, thus making the graven image and any other God obviously error. And what man looks upon his neighbor's wife or daughter lustfully and doesn't attempt to hide the fact he's doing so? Honoring Mother and Father are an obvious thing we should do, after all from their love and nurturing we were born and raised. They cared for us and made sure we were fed and kept.
The one command that doesn't show itself readily is that of the world's seven day creation and subsequent Sabbath rest. Think about it, what indicator should a man have to this command? What man who lives primitively has a calendar or a day off? Every day is one that demands actions to ensure the survival of himself and his family. Everyday firewood is needed, everyday food must be gathered and enemies fought. To this natural man this command is actually an evil idea. One for which he would feel shame that he didn't provide for his family. While it can be said that he could gather enough in six days and rest a seventh it doesn't deal with a singular problem. The most glaring difference is how does he know which day is which to observe a proper Sabbath day? He has no calendar and every day is the same! He has no concept of weeks or Sabbath days set aside to be a holy observance to God, and thereby has no way to enter Heaven if not keeping the Sabbath is damnable to him. How many do you suppose had inclination to observe a Sabbath day? Hmm?
This is a point the modern sabbatarian usually hasn’t considered; There is no testimony of the natural man’s conscience to tell him what he is doing is wrong. Interestingly Romans chapter one speaks of this type of person, (natural man), and says that God is knowable to him by the things that are made; that they are revealed to a man’s conscience! In other words enough of God’s character and love are evident in what he’s made for us (life and creation) that we should know him through these things and be able to obey him wholeheartedly. Yet no evidence of which day is which could possibly be apparent to this natural man, and this is why I can confidently say the Sabbath is not a moral command. It’s a simple concept, truth, righteousness, and goodness are available to the heart of every man, and if this were truly a moral issue, it would be undeniably, inescapably obvious to every human being that ever lived. Who apart from the Hebrew people were given this Sabbath laden calendar by God? They were shown when their first Sabbath was in Exodus 16, and commanded to count days in Exodus 12. What indigenous forest dwelling person (the natural man) has had that benefit? What Gentile was ever given that command in the first century? There's no record of it at all! Who before this time of the Manna week (Exodus 16) was given this command? Not one. Additionally the Hebrew calendar is very different from the Gregorian calendar that we use today. The Hebrew calendar has between 354-383 days, and varies between 12 and 13 months per year. The Gregorian calendar of 1543 has 365 days and twelve months, with more days in a leap year. These two calendars NEVER agree with each other.
Then we have to ask ourselves about the day that history has lost. There was a day that the sun didn't set, (it's in your Bible unless you tore out Joshua chapter ten), This is my point, the seventh day Sabbath may not even be celebrated on the right day by the modern Sabbath keeper!!! Since this teaching is all about the particular day in question it’s a fool’s errand to try and fulfill a command you can’t even be sure you’re properly observing, and if God demanded any such thing he would assuredly reveal it to your conscience through the Holy Spirit. Attending an assembly of believers is one such thing he absolutely reveals, I feel conviction if I don’t assemble with the body as do most Christians. That however has nothing to do with the Sabbath. Why would God convict me about not worshiping on a Sunday morning if the Sabbath Command was in place? He would actually do the opposite and convict me that my worship is unacceptable to him, that however is not the case, as I feel and know the presence of God in church on Sundays.
Earlier it was mentioned that the Jewish Sabbath was a shadow of things to come. It was a sign to point out the reality that was to come in Jesus Christ. The rest from work that a man was at one time commanded to observe is now full in Christ. Hebrews chapter 4 talks about entering into God's rest, that we should rest from our works of righteousness and trust in Christ by faith, and thereby fulfill the Sabbath rest. The New Testament evidences this elsewhere when it shows that a believer has been "created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." Ephesians 2:10 The believer rests from his works to take up the works of God in Jesus Christ, this idea has harmony. The disciples asked Jesus "how do we work the works of God," and to this Jesus replied, "believe on him who God has sent." John 6:28-29 He also said come unto me and I will give you REST!
Everyone knows a sign points to something that's coming, it's not here but we see the sign so we know to expect it and not miss it. A sign is not a moral command, and a moral command is not a sign. That's what the Sabbath day is supposed to be according to God's own words. A sign. Exodus chapter 31 makes this plain.
"And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my Sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you." Exodus 31:12-13
Can it get any clearer than this? Who is Moses to speak unto? The Children of Israel. What did he call the Sabbath, a moral command for all the world or a sign between God and the generations of Israel? Obviously a sign for a particular people. Why were they given that sign? So that they would know that the Lord is the one who sanctifies them. What sign was given to show their sanctification when Christ came and died on the cross for sin? Was it now still the sign of the Sabbath? They asked Jesus to give them a sign, he said no sign will be given to you except the sign of Jonah. That just as Jonah was three days in the belly of a whale, so will the son of man be three days in the belly of the earth. The sign of their sanctification was to be the Sabbath. Now sanctification is to be in Christ and by his blood, no longer a need for a sign, the Sabbath, because the real thing is here; Jesus Christ and his resurrection from the dead! Can you see how Sabbath keeping actually leads away from the truth of the ministry of Jesus?
If you are a Christian and Christ is your sanctification, not only that but the sign given to you of God's authority and he NEVER preached a Sabbath keeping message why would you believe he desired for you to keep a Jewish sign of his coming to know sanctification when your sanctification comes through the finished work of his cross? It really doesn't make sense when you look at it for what it is. Upon his death the gospel records the temple curtain being torn from the top down. This showed that the way was now open to God, that the old temple worship was of no effect any longer.
"Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever" Exodus 31:16-17
It's a sign between who? Me and the children of Israel says God. A perpetual covenant the Lord says, and it's for ever. It's forever because it's continuance is in Jesus Christ. If left to men it would not last forever. Can we say that the Sabbath days are observed in eternity? Revelation testifies that "the former things are passed away." This means the day and the night, the sun and the moon, the calendar and it's days, but the Sabbath rest will continue forever, (not as a day) the Bible says so, and if there's no more days and no more night, and no measurement of time any longer how can there be the observance of a holy day? Christ is Lord of the Sabbath, he is our rest, he is our perpetual covenant. He will go on forever, and no more is there need of a sign when the fulfillment has come and said "it is finished." What Jesus Christ finished was his temple ministry as our High Priest. It's eternally complete. Observe a Jewish Sabbath if you like, I'd rather trust in Christ resting every day from the works of the law knowing that the righteousness he completed for me will be my justification and blood covenant with God.
-feel free to reproduce edit and or distribute this teaching, this is made from excerpts from an unpublished work of mine. Enjoy!
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Post by Larry Marquez on Nov 17, 2017 15:18:31 GMT
What about Timothy getting circumcised? Is it similar to God telling someone to get a tattoo and mostly everyone else that situation is a no?
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Post by nobody on Nov 18, 2017 17:24:43 GMT
I'm not sure who you question is directed to somebody but I'll answer...
Timothy's circumcision was not for God's sake directly, (God didn't require it) but chiefly to appease men. The same as Jesus paying the temple tax when pressed by the Pharisees. In a round about way it's done to please God by making peace with men.
The action, like the Sabbath command is neither here nor there.
For the Kingdom of God is not a matter of what we eat or drink, but of living a life of goodness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Romans 14:17
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Post by Kabuki on Jan 18, 2018 21:22:00 GMT
Thank you Guest/Doe for asking about the Sabbath day topic! That's one of many issues that I wanted to know more about.
I've recently begun seeking God after an extended hiatus and often find myself frustrated and confused. I've looked online for fellowship and clarification of God's Word. The Hebrew Roots movement intrigued me, but as Nobody laid it out, that path seems to be leading back into bondage. Very helpful to have that covered so well. I feel I can put that rabbit trail to rest.
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Post by samual.yoder on Oct 3, 2018 12:04:58 GMT
Is not or was not the sabbath a day of rest? I don't see in the OT that it is a day to go to church and worship like we do today. The commandment itself is just requiring no work, to rest, does not say anything about going to church and worshiping.
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Post by Jeff G on Oct 4, 2018 16:58:24 GMT
You're right, there isn't a command to assemble together and worship. But it can be a very good thing to do. After all, it was the custom of Jesus to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath (Luke 4:16).
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Post by samualyoder on Oct 12, 2018 11:34:49 GMT
Right, Jesus went to the synagogue on the sabbath as was his custom. All Hebrews went to the synagogue on the sabbath it was their culture or custom. When God instituted the sabbath in his laws for Israel there were no synagogues. It was a day of rest for people to just stay home, study and mediate on the wonders and awesomeness of God. They did not gather in some building hear a sermon then stop off at the mall for some shopping or a diner for luch before going home. JMO
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