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Post by Larry Marquez on Apr 4, 2019 19:48:24 GMT
Smaller update: Yesterday I mentioned substitutionary atonement because I read an article talking about how it’s not exactly in scripture. Well the article really gave me a deeper revelation of God’s grace, so I wanted to share it here: The Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It’s not some universalist thing, like I said, and I think it speaks to how our view on the gospel and evangelism is twisted and very easily leads to humanism + a distororted view of God’s grace. Back to hell and universalism, I honestly have no idea. This venture that I’ve been on has led me into a lot of unexplored territory and now I even encountered the view that the events in Revelation have already happened (preterism). The views that I would have instantly dismissed as heretical before, I’m actually looking at them now and just absorbing it in. I’m not really making too many judgements for myself because I need God to do that. At the same time that I’ve been learning to trust Him blindly and just walk in faith, it’s antithetical to the human nature because we want to be comfortable and know what’s going to happen, so my mind is spinning in a lot of ways. Along with that, there are a lot of things here and there where my boundaries are being stretched on how I see the spiritual world, the heavenly realms and just everything ranging to my daily walk with the Lord. I would ask that you just keep me in prayer! I trust that God will bring me out on the other side of this, and like I quoted George MacDonald in the last post, what I’m most worried about is whether I am giving God my all, not the different doctrines I hold on to. I guess this has become an update thread now Thank you all, as always, may Jesus Christ be the rock & foundation of our lives and may He lead us into all truth. What about Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:5? Doesn't that support Jesus died for our sins? Also 1 Peter 2:24
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Post by Matthew on Apr 4, 2019 20:20:11 GMT
What about Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:5? Doesn't that support Jesus died for our sins? Also 1 Peter 2:24 Did you even open the article? He talks about those verses (and more). He’s not saying Jesus didn’t die for our sins, the Bible is clear on that, in fact, that’s the argument Paul (the article author) is making.
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Post by Larry Marquez on Apr 5, 2019 0:34:17 GMT
What about Isaiah 53:10 and Isaiah 53:5? Doesn't that support Jesus died for our sins? Also 1 Peter 2:24 Did you even open the article? He talks about those verses (and more). He’s not saying Jesus didn’t die for our sins, the Bible is clear on that, in fact, that’s the argument Paul (the article author) is making. In your previous post you said this " Yesterday I mentioned substitutionary atonement because I read an article talking about how it’s not exactly in scripture " I brought up the verses because in the beginning of the article the author said " The Scriptures never say that Jesus "died in our place" or "paid for our sins." ". Because don't the verses I brought disprove that statement? Also doesn't this topic change if someone's believes once saved always saved or vice versa? All I really know about this atonement subject is our sins deserve punishment but God in his Mercy forgives us through Jesus Christ died on the cross and at the same time God wants us to grow maturity spiritually that way we sin less. Maybe I'm just being lazy with reading some of the article, but it felt like the article was trying to maybe overcomplicate the subject matter about atonement? Sin is bad and needs to be punished because God is Holy. Jesus died for our sins to save us out of his mercy from that punishment aka hell and on top of that will get to regin with him if we endure to the end. It's kind of like if you got caught by your boss stealing from the company instead of you getting fired, he forgives you and punishes himself and then promotes you to be co-boss with him.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 5, 2019 2:48:42 GMT
Alright, so according to Paul Pavao atonement is 100% Biblical, substitutionary atonement is not. I think it makes it complicated because theological words are really long and complicated. I’ll try to make it as simple as possible.
God was the same in the Old Testament as in the New Testament. People think that in order for God to change our judgement (going to hell), Jesus had to die on the cross. What Paul is proposing based on Scripture is that even in the Old Testament, as long as people repented, God forgave them of their sin.
So why did Jesus die then, if not to save us from hell? To deliver us from sin. So what’s the difference? Well one view is often humanistic and shows that God needs a sacrifice to change his judgement. The other view shows that God can forgive based on someone’s heart (repentance) and is instead about obedience.
The big picture is really explained when Paul presents the gospel in Romans. Living under the law = flesh and death. Living under the Spirit = life; we can only live under the Spirit this way because of Jesus’ sacrifice.
I hope that explains it. If nothing else, it shows that God is much more merciful and graceful than many western Christians think (this doesn’t diminish his justice either, in fact it could show how He’s even more just).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 5, 2019 3:06:27 GMT
Can we please keep on-topic?
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Post by Larry Marquez on Apr 5, 2019 3:16:42 GMT
Alright, so according to Paul Pavao atonement is 100% Biblical, substitutionary atonement is not. I think it makes it complicated because theological words are really long and complicated. I’ll try to make it as simple as possible. God was the same in the Old Testament as in the New Testament. People think that in order for God to change our judgement (going to hell), Jesus had to die on the cross. What Paul is proposing based on Scripture is that even in the Old Testament, as long as people repented, God forgave them of their sin. So why did Jesus die then, if not to save us from hell? To deliver us from sin. So what’s the difference? Well one view is often humanistic and shows that God needs a sacrifice to change his judgement. The other view shows that God can forgive based on someone’s heart (repentance) and is instead about obedience. The big picture is really explained when Paul presents the gospel in Romans. Living under the law = flesh and death. Living under the Spirit = life; we can only live under the Spirit this way because of Jesus’ sacrifice. I hope that explains it. If nothing else, it shows that God is much more merciful and graceful than many western Christians think (this doesn’t diminish his justice either, in fact it could show how He’s even more just). I think this topic needs to be done over a voice conversation, doesn't work out for me over typing. No more derailing the thread from me. Sorry
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Post by Matthew on Apr 6, 2019 13:30:33 GMT
This will probably be my conclusion until God really shows me one way or the other. I can see the points made for universalism and how people will get to that point based on God’s character and on Scripture. It raises a lot of other questions though and because of that I’m not convinced either way now.
The important thing is that I’m not going to worry about the future and live life in this body day by day. The problem comes when people say, “oh I’m not going to hell because Jesus died for me I can do whatever I want” or “oh there is not Hell so I can do whatever I want and still go to heaven”. Both perspectives are foolish and humanistic. God is way bigger than we are and His thoughts are way higher than our thoughts, so how can we expect to explain Him simply? If we seek Him with all of our heart, He will reveal Himself to us. Then we can do His will and have an intimate relationship with the Creator of the Cosmos every single day. I wouldn’t want to pass up that opportunity for a second (God help me!).
So if you guys have any questions on the whole topic, I’ve done a good amount of looking into it so I’ll gladly give an abridged version of everything. May we abide in Him forevermore.
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Post by Jeff G on Apr 7, 2019 22:06:55 GMT
OK, I think it's time for me to weigh in on the concept of universalism.
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell." Matthew 10:28
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.’ ... And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.” Matthew 25:41,46
They will suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, 2 Thessalonians 1:9
just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire. Jude 1:7
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. Revelation 20:14-15
Having given those quotes, I want to add that I myself hold to beliefs about eternal judgment that differ from what is commonly taught. But I won't go into that at the moment.
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Post by waris on Apr 8, 2019 4:19:35 GMT
1. What do the phrases/ terms: "for ever and ever", "everlasting", "eternal" mean to you and everybody else?
Revelation 14 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
Revelation 20 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Daniel 12 2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Mark 3 29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Hebrews 6 2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 11:13:59 GMT
You'd be surprised to know, waris, that universalists can look at these verses and see/interpret those verses differently.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2019 11:21:04 GMT
However, I myself have rather put the issue on a shelf. I know one thing, at the end of the day... or on That DAY. GOD will be perfectly just and perfectly right. Reminds me of the encounter (I mention it a lot) that Mr Doug had with Jesus:
"And I see the whole panorama of creation as if it's all done, and there's a new heaven and a new earth, the judgments are over, and it's perfect. I can't tell you who got into heaven and who didnt. I cant tell you what the New Jerusalem looks like, I cant tell you anything except all that I could do and contain at that moment was an awareness that it was all perfect. That all of creation, for eternity, would sit with its mouth open marveling at how God tied it all up with a bow and everything was just. There was nothing left out. There was an explanation for everything and it made perfect sense and it had to be that way. N it was fair and it was right and it was just and it was good. Every kid in Africa that died of aids, every person that was raped or molested or hurt or whatever, somehow beyond my capacity to understand, it was all part of the plan. And it was all necessary. And it was all tied up with a bow. And justice was served on those that did wrong. And mercy on those who needed mercy. It was perfect. Perfect. No string untied, nothing left undone, perfect. And i couldnt process anything but that and I stood there and I marveled and I cried and said "oh God i had no idea. Everything is part of the plan, its perfect". And I dont know if it was 5 min or 10 min or half an hour. But I knew everything. Coudlnt retain it, couldnt process it, couldnt whatever. But I saw the end. And it was perfect. perfectly just, perfectly righteous. Nobody could argue, nobody could say 'I was done wrong and justice wasnt meted out' or 'I shouldnt be here in the lake of fire' or anything. Even people that were in heaven and didn't think they deserved it, the LORD had showed them. Everybody could see the whole thing. And everybody knew, all of creation knew and marveled at how good the Father is, how perfect His plans. How much HE knew the end from he beginning, how every butterfly, every speck of dust, every little dog, every... Everything was part of the plan."
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Post by waris on Apr 9, 2019 3:12:02 GMT
You'd be surprised to know, waris, that universalists can look at these verses and see/interpret those verses differently. 1. So what is your answer?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 28, 2019 12:50:39 GMT
OK, I have some more questions.
What about muslims who werent raised any other way and then blow up a church and themselves? What about those in N. Korea who are controlled? What about the Jews who went to the gas chambers, only to be burned forever cuz they never accepted Jesus as Messiah? What about every child who was abused and grew up only knowing pain? What about every sex trafficking victim who was never freed and died in their slavery? They didnt ask to be born, they didnt ask to be abused and controlled, they didnt ask to die in their pain/suffering and confusion.
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Post by Jeff G on Apr 28, 2019 13:57:24 GMT
I think some of your questions can be addressed by considering the following question: will anyone be saved at the time of the second resurrection and final judgment?
This is going to be based on the following framework on how there is more than one resurrection (this should be pretty standard for a lot of Christians) - when Jesus comes for the Church, the dead in Christ rise first, those who are alive are transformed, and all these are gathered together to meet Him in the air (1 Thess. 4:15-17). Revelation 20:5 says "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection." So there is the first resurrection, then the thousand years, and then the second resurrection. Notice that people who truly belong to Christ take part in the first resurrection.
However, it can be shown that some people WILL be saved at the time of the second resurrection. The implication of this is great - there are people who didn't know Christ during their lifetime who will nevertheless receive eternal life. But don't mistake what I'm saying here... Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes to the Father except through Him. However, He is also the judge. Jesus is the One who will judge mankind, and if He grants eternal life to some people at that time, then so be it.
So why am I saying that people will be saved at the second resurrection? John 5:28-29 -- "Do not marvel at this, for an hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who have done good to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil to the resurrection of judgment." I think it's helpful to emphasize the words 'hour' and 'all'. 1) When He says "an hour is coming," surely that eliminates any possibility of this referring to a 1000+ year period of time encompassing both resurrections. It can't be talking about a long period of time like that. 2) The fact that the word 'all' is used means we are not dealing with the first resurrection; not all will rise at the first resurrection. At the final resurrection, ALL who are in the tombs will come out. And then we just take note of what the end of the quotation says - some receive life, and others receive judgment.
Again, I'm not saying that there is any other way to eternal life than through Jesus. A person can either receive Him now and be saved, or face Him in the judgment. I'm not recommending that anybody take the latter path. But I do believe He will grant eternal life to some people at that time.
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Post by Larry Marquez on Apr 28, 2019 17:39:39 GMT
The Bible mentions how many are invited but few are chosen. Maybe "the chosen" are a group of people who are predestined to go to heaven but those number people are very very few compared to a majority of everyone else.
Maybe the first sentence Isaiah 65:1 relates to the chosen?
" "I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, 'Here am I, here am I.' "
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