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Post by Seeker on Mar 30, 2019 1:43:53 GMT
Is HELL forever?? Is it just a punishment but HE will overcome in the end and He will "draw all men unto HImself"?
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Post by Matthew on Mar 30, 2019 13:50:02 GMT
It’s basically guaranteed that hell is forever. There are a lot of verses that refer to our judgement as eternal. In fact one of the 6 foundational doctrines of Christ in Hebrews 6:1-2 is eternal judgement. I’ll give a few different verses. I’ll be referencing and pasting a lot from this article. In fact, I would suggest reading the article as it’s pretty extensive. Jesus references Isaiah 66:24 when talking about hell. “And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where “ ‘ the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’” Mark 9:47-48 NIV Here’s a few more references showing how this is an eternal punishment (again, the article will have a lot more, I’m just throwing a few in here). “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” Matthew 25:46 NIV “He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might” 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9 NIV I think it’s pretty clear. The basis on people entering heaven or hell depends on whether they believed and obeyed in this life. Unless you twist dozens of passages from Scripture, it’s really hard to make a case that eternal punishment is not eternal. Everyone will be ‘without excuse’ ( Rom. 1:20 ), they will have had their chance. For definition’s sake, here is the simple definition of eternal: eternal: lasting or existing forever; without end or beginning One question from me. Just based on how you wrote this question and how J usually writes. Is this J?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 30, 2019 14:07:26 GMT
Seriously........... People write in here ALL the time and you dont ask them that, I write ONE TIME under a different name and you pick it out! HOW?! Kid, you are just too smart for me. Who told you? Yeah, I had a crisis of faith over these matters.
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Post by Jeff G on Mar 30, 2019 14:20:18 GMT
It didn't even cross my mind at first that it was you, J. But once Matthew pointed it out, it makes a lot of sense. I think capitalizing "HE" like that is a pretty big clue.
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Post by Matthew on Mar 31, 2019 7:51:12 GMT
Haha The capitalized ‘HE’ was the tip-off; from there it was pretty plain to see because you have a specific voice to your writing style and different mannerisms like the double question mark, capitalizing other things, the way the title was written, etc. It’s just things that are subconsciously noticed I guess. The faith-crisis is understandable, it’s happened to me a lot where I’ll encounter things that really challenged all that I believe. I’ll seek out the truth from the Lord and either they’re true and I’ll get a deeper revelation of Him, or they’re not true, and I’ll be strengthened against the lies. It gets increasingly difficult though, just as Paul said, “Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me—to keep me from exalting myself!” (2 Cor. 12:7). Though I wouldn’t say I’ve gotten quite as deep as Paul yet, considering the context of that passage is when he “was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.” (2 Cor. 12:4). Still, I always have to learn to humble myself, to be meek and rely on Him, not the knowledge He’s given me or the gifts that He’s put in me. The flesh always wants to be self-sufficient, that’s why it has to die! Anyway, I pray we learn to rely on Him always and to enter His rest, because the true works that pass the test of fire, the works that produce fruit and bring life, those are the works that can only come out of our resting in Him and God almighty doing the work through us.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 12:10:19 GMT
You should definitely think bout being a detective or something, haha!
I did settle the matter somewhat, not that I have all the answers regarding this topic, I truly don't. BUT I did come to the conclusion that I must always side with GOD, even when I dont understand or dont have the answers. HE is always right and I should never ever argue with Him or 'shake my fist at heaven' which is what I was doing (Yikes!). I'm relieved HE is merciful. I was definitely dancing on the edge of being very rebellious. But HE reeled me back in, so that I didnt fall off the edge.
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Post by kozmickid on Mar 31, 2019 14:29:50 GMT
I'm a little conflicted over this "everlasting" thing...suppose you're in Heaven, and you've just celebrated your one-trillionth anniversary of coming into Christ's bosom, and you're thinking about your next trillion times a trillion years...what's the plan? What keeps you busy? Is it just one, big laze to kill time, of which you have an endless supply? Seems like you'd pretty much exhaust all the options in the first couple million years...
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Post by Matthew on Mar 31, 2019 16:26:47 GMT
You should definitely think bout being a detective or something, haha! I did want to be one when I was really really young I'm a little conflicted over this "everlasting" thing...suppose you're in Heaven, and you've just celebrated your one-trillionth anniversary of coming into Christ's bosom, and you're thinking about your next trillion times a trillion years...what's the plan? What keeps you busy? Is it just one, big laze to kill time, of which you have an endless supply? Seems like you'd pretty much exhaust all the options in the first couple million years... I can understand where you’re coming from actually. I used to have thoughts like that before God changed my life and I became born again. I think the common understanding is that ‘eternity’ is without time. In the last chapter of the last book of the Bible (Revelation) it says this, “There will be no more night. They will not need the light of a lamp or the light of the sun, for the Lord God will give them light. And they will reign for ever and ever.” (Rev 22:5). So we definitely won’t be measuring time in the same way, if at all. We likely won’t be bored either, all the negative things we know originate from a disobedience to God and through that sin enters (the story of Adam and Eve) and messes everything up. As for the origin in which the thought comes, it comes from a humanistic perspective; in which the end of all being is man’s happiness. I suppose this doesn’t apply to all Christians because there’s varying levels of maturity, and a lot of people call themselves ‘Christians’ simply on a religious basis (pretty safe to say a lot of ‘Christians’ fall into that category), but when you are truly born again as Jesus talks about in John 3, you realize that it’s not just about our selfish needs, but instead our end goal is the glory of God. From that realization my life was changed in an amazing way. I realized I wasn’t just to do whatever I wanted with life and instead submitted my will to God. Before that I was lazy and just went through the motions, and I had many good intentions to change my life, but I never found breakthrough. After God changed my life I was able to do it and my life changed for the better. It’s not about just changing your life because any person can do that through motivation, determination, and diligence, but instead it’s about something deeper. It’s about an exit from this worldly system that is ruled by satan and to make an entrance into God’s kingdom. From there is where our being must emanate and we can actually live the life God intended for us. I pray that God gives you understanding on all of that, if you have any other questions I would be glad to try and answer. This is all spiritual and if it sounds foolish, I would say the easiest way to come to the truth is humbling yourself to God and asking Him to reveal it.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 31, 2019 16:34:44 GMT
Humanism. Thats a SUPER point Matthew! GOD is so vast and so big and so beautiful and so powerful and so full of love and every knowledge, there is absolutely NO end to the passion, satisfaction, and longing of HIM.
See here's the thing, heaven isn't about heaven. It's not just a get out of hell-jail free card. its not even about how 'nice' or pretty heaven is, what makes heaven heaven is the LORD. Heaven isnt for those who just want to get away from hell or have a nice assurance for when they die, its about wanting the Living GOD.
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Post by Matthew on Apr 2, 2019 6:04:02 GMT
Alright, so I’m going ‘back to the drawing board’ on this one. I’ve been listening to a man named Mike Parsons and he has had some really good practical teachings that are stretching the boundaries of what I know, and through it I’ve been getting a lot of green flags, so everything seems good. Today as I was listening, he mentioned a quote from Rob Bell. Rob Bell for those who don’t know is a universalist, meaning he believes that there is a hell, but everyone will eventually go to heaven after a period of time. So when I heard him mention this, it made me curious on Mike’s stance on this. I knew he had a playlist on his YouTube channel called ‘Hell (or not)’ and I started watching. Basically, he has a view that hell is not as we know it in typical evangelical terms. One point he made is the words that are used for hell, eternal, punishment, and others are misunderstood and often mistranslated. He comes from a typical evangelical background himself, and is basing much of what he believes now on the experiences he has had with God and how he has learned God’s character to be. So I’m going in this cautiously, but with an open mind. I don’t want to simply take for granted the doctrines of hell and eternal damnation because that was the common belief or interpretation, or, in that case, take anything for granted. I mean, basically everything I hold to as truth now is way different, or much deeper than what I believed initially even though before I considered my beliefs ‘rooted in the Bible’. I’m praying and seeking to keep my eyes on Jesus through it all and I’m trusting that He will guide me into all truth “... but I do say that the importance they place on theory is even more sadly obstructive to true faith than such theories themselves: while the mind is occupied in enquiring, 'Do I believe or feel this thing right?'—the true question is forgotten: 'Have I left all to follow him?' To the man who gives himself to the living Lord, every belief will necessarily come right; the Lord himself will see that his disciple believe aright concerning him. If a man cannot trust him for this, what claim can he make to faith in him? It is because he has little or no faith, that he is left clinging to preposterous and dishonoring ideas, the traditions of men concerning his Father, and neither his teaching nor that of his apostles. The living Christ is to them but a shadow; the all but obliterated Christ of their theories no soul can thoroughly believe in.” -George MacDonald Here’s a great article on quotes from him that really resonated spiritually.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 13:06:43 GMT
Yes, it's this very topic that threw me off Matthew. This topic of universalism, a nicey nice God that sees ALL mankind as being eventually saved. And I thought it sounded great... until I read through all of John, 1 John, 2 John, 3 John and most of Matthew and I just couldnt come to terms with this concept of universal salvation and that threw me into a severe tailspin and I told GOD how cruel He is and why even make mankind at all etc etc. I seriously considered walking away because of it!! And thats BAD!!! GOD is good, and GOd is love. But no matter what the answer is regarding hell, HE IS ALWAYS RIGHT. And that's about all I can manage right now and Ive put all other theology on a shelf because I cannot afford to fall away based on a doctrine. Universalists think that 'infernalists' (people who believe in a forever hell) serve a monster for a God. So be very very very very careful. It's simply not worth falling away.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 13:08:50 GMT
I don't think I can go with universal (eventual salvation) for all mankind. IF it does happen that HE does this, then that would be really awesome. However, it makes evangelism and sharing the Gospel almost void or pointless, I mean why even bother if everyone's gonna be saved anyways, even hitler himself?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 2, 2019 13:11:59 GMT
My point is, GOD is always right no matter which theology regarding hell. There is a quote I want to share from Mr Doug from his video and I will leave ya'll with this for now:
"HE's real. When some atheist argues with me their opinion that God's not real, I don't argue my opinion that God is real. I met Jesus. In person. And HE's more real than you are. He is exactly who HE said He was and is and will be. And I dont serve Him for the hopes of going to heaven. I serve Him because HE's a righteous God that deserves to be served no matter what happens to me. I don't preach lot about heaven and hell, I think it's humanism, I think it's hedonism to serve HIM for a reward or to avoid punishment. I serve HIM because hes worthy to be served no matter what happens to me."
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Post by Matthew on Apr 3, 2019 17:50:18 GMT
Update:So I’ve spent a very large chunk of time looking into this (maybe 10 hours). I’ve been looking mostly from the point of universalists and people that say that hell doesn’t exist as we know it. Honestly there is a lot of good from what people bring up. I think that evangelicalism as a whole takes for granted our doctrines of hell. Francis Chan wrote a book about this topic and he himself mentioned the same thing in this video. In my research I’ve also found a lot of other things that were personally very edifying and eye-opening. Our doctrine of ‘substitutionary atonement’, meaning Jesus had to die for our sins, else we would have to go to hell, is actually quite unscriptural (this I learned from a non-universalist). Thus, for many, our methods of evangelism and view of the Gospel is twisted. Jesus came to ransom us of our slavery to sin. Throughout this experience as well, I’ve found a deeper and newfound grace in God’s character. It’s quite beautiful. Because of our view of hell and even the view of substitutionary atonement, it can twist our view of God as one that has to punish sin no matter what. This verse is even in the Old Testament: ““But if the wicked man turns from all his sins which he has committed and observes all My statutes and practices justice and righteousness, he shall surely live; he shall not die. All his transgressions which he has committed will not be remembered against him; because of his righteousness which he has practiced, he will live. Do I have any pleasure in the death of the wicked,” declares the Lord GOD, “rather than that he should turn from his ways and live?”” Ezekiel 18:21-23. It has showed me I need a deeper view of sin if that’s what Jesus came to save us from, not from hell. He wants us to live holy lives in constant obedience and communion with Him; that’s what brings Him glory. When it comes to this doctrine of universalism, I’m not convinced, but I’m allowing God to show me what’s true, I’m going to leave it up to Him to explain it all to me. At this point if someone asked me whether there is an eternal punishment or hell, I would honestly say I don’t know. I would just present everything that I’ve learned, as God wills. Many of the views are too ‘doctrinal’ for me and I tend to believe someone like Mike Parsons more because of what Jesus said, “you will know them by their fruits”. A couple points Mike Parsons made are what opened me up most to this ‘doctrine’ as a possibility. He shared his experience of when he went into the room of fire and his family’s past generations’ souls were in there. He preached the gospel to them and some left the room and confessed Jesus as Lord. He also begged the question of whether someone still has the chance to make the choice of whether or not they can still confess Jesus as Lord on the other side. He cited the verse, “it’s appointed a man once to die and then the judgement” saying it doesn’t exclude someone being able to choose afterward. I found this experience similar to when Peter talks about Jesus going to preach to those in prison. If this were to be true, this fire of anguish and ‘restoration punishment’ would be hell as we know it. So far, still a big ? for me on all this. I’ll keep you updated as the Lord leads! May He lead us into all truth!
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Post by Matthew on Apr 4, 2019 15:25:11 GMT
Smaller update: Yesterday I mentioned substitutionary atonement because I read an article talking about how it’s not exactly in scripture. Well the article really gave me a deeper revelation of God’s grace, so I wanted to share it here: The Substitutionary Atonement of Jesus Christ on the Cross. It’s not some universalist thing, like I said, and I think it speaks to how our view on the gospel and evangelism is twisted and very easily leads to humanism + a distororted view of God’s grace. Back to hell and universalism, I honestly have no idea. This venture that I’ve been on has led me into a lot of unexplored territory and now I even encountered the view that the events in Revelation have already happened (preterism). The views that I would have instantly dismissed as heretical before, I’m actually looking at them now and just absorbing it in. I’m not really making too many judgements for myself because I need God to do that. At the same time that I’ve been learning to trust Him blindly and just walk in faith, it’s antithetical to the human nature because we want to be comfortable and know what’s going to happen, so my mind is spinning in a lot of ways. Along with that, there are a lot of things here and there where my boundaries are being stretched on how I see the spiritual world, the heavenly realms and just everything ranging to my daily walk with the Lord. I would ask that you just keep me in prayer! I trust that God will bring me out on the other side of this, and like I quoted George MacDonald in the last post, what I’m most worried about is whether I am giving God my all, not the different doctrines I hold on to. I guess this has become an update thread now Thank you all, as always, may Jesus Christ be the rock & foundation of our lives and may He lead us into all truth.
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