|
Post by Larry Marquez on Jan 31, 2017 7:25:40 GMT
I was watching this video by Perry Stone about how Jesus preached to people in Hell or Abraham's bosom during the three day earth time after he died on the cross. One point he brought up was the thief went with Jesus to be a second witness for Him, since everything is established with two or three witnesses. Starts at 7:12 about the thief, but I think it's important to watch the beginning to get the context of the statement. youtu.be/eC_-tRL_BGAIf that actually occurred that's pretty awazing.
|
|
|
Post by Jeff G on Jan 31, 2017 15:59:20 GMT
Yeah, I had never heard the idea that the thief was a second witness. So that was interesting. But the rest of it is pretty standard I suppose - Jesus descending into Sheol, where both the righteous and the unrighteous went (though separated), and preaching unto them. Oh, more evidence that the spirits of the righteous descended into the earth to "Abraham's Bosom" can be found in 1 Sam. 28, particularly verses 13-15 - here the spirit of Samuel is described as coming up out of the earth.
On that note, the idea that the spirits of the righteous didn't at that time go to heaven since Jesus hadn't yet gone to the cross makes sense to me except for one thing: how do Enoch and Elijah fit into all this? I've never quite understood how they can be an exception. (I accept it, I just don't know on what basis it was allowed.)
P.S. I don't quite follow your reference to Hebrews 4:19.
|
|
|
Post by Larry Marquez on Jan 31, 2017 16:51:03 GMT
Yeah, I had never heard the idea that the thief was a second witness. So that was interesting. But the rest of it is pretty standard I suppose - Jesus descending into Sheol, where both the righteous and the unrighteous went (though separated), and preaching unto them. Oh, more evidence that the spirits of the righteous descended into the earth to "Abraham's Bosom" can be found in 1 Sam. 28, particularly verses 13-15 - here the spirit of Samuel is described as coming up out of the earth. On that note, the idea that the spirits of the righteous didn't at that time go to heaven since Jesus hadn't yet gone to the cross makes sense to me except for one thing: how do Enoch and Elijah fit into all this? I've never quite understood how they can be an exception. (I accept it, I just don't know on what basis it was allowed.) P.S. I don't quite follow your reference to Hebrews 4:19. I made a typo sorry. It was Hebrews 9:14. I think that verse needs to be talked about more and sets Christianity apart from other religions. Also after reading that verse it helped me grow in my walk with God.
|
|
|
Post by Jeff G on Jan 31, 2017 17:05:07 GMT
I figured it was a typo of some sort - there is no Hebrews 4:19. :-)
I like Heb. 9:14, that's a good one. As a matter of fact, the contrast between verses 13 and 14 relates to that Perry Stone video, how he was talking about the blood of animals not being able to really atone for sin in the way that Christ's blood provides perfect atonement forever.
|
|
|
Post by viktor on Feb 4, 2017 17:34:18 GMT
And what about this verse?
"And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luk 23:43)
Interesting topic!
|
|
|
Post by Larry Marquez on Feb 4, 2017 18:47:47 GMT
And what about this verse? "And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise." (Luk 23:43) Interesting topic! If Jesus did go to the side of Sheol where Abraham & righteous people went before Christ's coming back alive (Lazarus & rich man story), then that area was a paradise. So if all that is true then what Jesus said was true, but was a different Paradise, instead of Heaven.
|
|
|
Post by coreficus on Feb 4, 2017 18:53:02 GMT
I have heard the punctuation could have been wrong, it could go like this: And he said to him, “Truly, I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise.”
|
|
|
Post by Jeff G on Feb 4, 2017 19:21:07 GMT
I've heard the idea about the punctuation as well. The thing is, there is no other instance in Scripture of Jesus talking like that. Plenty of times He says "Truly, I say to you..." but He never says "Truly, I say to you today" except in Luke 23:43.
And besides, what does it even mean to say "Truly, I say to you today, ..." ? Why emphasize that it is today? Every time you talk to a person it is "today". If I want to talk to someone tomorrow I can do that, but I have to wait until tomorrow, at which point it is "today". See what I mean?
|
|
|
Post by Larry Marquez on Feb 4, 2017 20:34:48 GMT
I've heard the idea about the punctuation as well. The thing is, there is no other instance in Scripture of Jesus talking like that. Plenty of times He says "Truly, I say to you..." but He never says "Truly, I say to you today" except in Luke 23:43. And besides, what does it even mean to say "Truly, I say to you today, ..." ? Why emphasize that it is today? Every time you talk to a person it is "today". If I want to talk to someone tomorrow I can do that, but I have to wait until tomorrow, at which point it is "today". See what I mean? Jesus and the thief both died on the same day. So the thief could have and died and went to Paradise where Abraham was. Then since Jesus died before the thief he meet him there. Also maybe there is no time there. I'm done with this topic, since we're messing a bunch of info about this.
|
|